Curse

Romosapian · Aug 09, 2011, 05:49 PM // 17:49

So lately, I've been tinkering with each of my hero builds as I continue vanquishing and finishing up my legendary guardian title. Now, I finished vanq Tyria, and im getting there with Cantha, so figuring out a better healer is by no means a HUGE priority for me, since what I have apparently works.

As a warrior, I've always used the conventional Sabway (with a few tweeks but essentially the same thing), Dual monk mimicry that I found on Pvx, and the other two depend on the area that I find myself in. Lately I like throwing in two rits.

Now here's what puzzles me. The sabway is said to work as a perfect machine. Now, theres only a couple things each hero has that would benefit each other, so really its not all that "machine" like, but thats not what I want to talk about. Like the title implies, I'm a bit confused about the Sabway Healer. The only thing this healer has that utilizes the other members of the Sabway is simply it being a necro and using Soul reaping with the minions.

Now the Healer has a couple nice heals, but overall the skills themselves kind of suck when you have a large party in a full fledged fluster cluck later on in each of the campaigns. The only thing that I find great about this healer is purely its necro aspect, which (through Soul reaping) gives it ridiculously good energy management when sporting a minion master.

So my question is this. Why don't I ever see (and I have been looking) a N/Mo build that utilizes Soul reaping for energy management AND has kikass monk skills, including some party wide heals and a few great low energy heals. Not to mention rit elites dont even come close in comparison with monk elites when it comes to overall healing.

Just at the top of my head, some of the skills that I would think would work well would be Healer's Boon or UA as an elite to make up for the loss of Divine Favor. Cure Hex, Heaven's Delight, Dwayna's Kiss. Stuff like that. Best of all you wouldn't need to waste two slots for the Mesmer energy mngmt skills, and you can throw in a more powerful heal and not worry as much for energy.

I can try it out and see if it works I guess. It's pretty dificult to speculate if a healer is better then another by testing it out since mob encounters vary in damage output and stuff like that. Give me your thoughts on this, I feel like I'm missing something here since it doesn't look like this is a popular alternative.

Tess80 · Aug 09, 2011, 08:12 PM // 20:12

The thing is that a N/Mo has no Divine Favor, and that makes the heals weaker than those of a primary monk, and weaker than those of a N/Rt. Without Divine Favor, even the good heals like Dwayna's Kiss, Patient Spirit or even Word of Healing will not come close to being as good as Spirit Light and Mend Body and Soul, which are both amazingly good. Word of Healing will barely outperform Spirit Light, even if the target is below 50% health.

Another problem is groupheals. N/Rt has Protective Was Kaolai and Life, which are limited, but worth it and provide a spirit for the other skills. PwK is also an instant heal when taking AoE damage. The only thing the N/Mo has to offer is Heal Party with a 2-second cast time, or Light of Deliverance, which will take your elite slot. Remember that Heaven's Delight and Divine Healing are both Divine Favor skills. Unyielding Aura and Healer's Boon are both Divine Favor skills as well (though HB can still be used but only lasts 10 seconds).

That being said, the monk has the ability to bring protection as well, which makes him an option in some teams, but almost everyone is running a Minion Master with important prots. The N/Rt usually has enough room for one or two skills from a different attribute, like Splinter Weapon, which is also appreciated in a party.

Like you said, the Ritualist restoration elites are a little lacking, so people are often using a damage elite like Pain of Disenchantment along with Restoration magic skills. The N/Rt has enough attribute points because 9 soul reaping is enough.

So in short, N/Mo is an option, but the heals are just weaker.

Elfblade · Aug 09, 2011, 08:17 PM // 20:17

the sabway healer being a necro and the synergy with soul reaping is the whole point to it (what makes it a machine), in the past all 3 heroes had more than decent energy management because of the minions.

To your criticism to using restoration i think you underestimate the power of restoration especially when used with a hero. They have 3 skills that are solid and strong (mend body and soul, Spirit light and protective was Kaolai) these 3 skills are enough for healing and you still save an elite skill and space for life, or any other support skill. healing is less inflexible and has less solid skills when used by heroes (btw heavens delight is divine favor) the 3 restoration skills have a low recharge+low energy cost and party heal can come from pwk and spirits.

To be honest with 7 heroes the compactability of the n/rt healer is not needed and you can just as well run an monk but if you need to that compactability as healer for that last slot a n/rt is a strong choice

halfies · Aug 09, 2011, 08:36 PM // 20:36

i run a WoH necro with my sabway, i like it alot more than the /rt versions i tried

Plutoman · Aug 10, 2011, 12:02 AM // 00:02

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Unyielding_Aura
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Healer%27s_Boon

Look at the attributes. Doesn't work. A good monk bar is very centered around it's Divine Favor skills, and energy management isn't worth dropping the entire attribute line to use the monk skills. A rit has no real need of spawning power, therefore can be used as a necro.

roses are blue · Aug 10, 2011, 03:22 PM // 15:22

My advise to you is to just play around with bars and have fun with it. Try a N/mo bar and see how it works for YOU. Consider the monk elite Glimmer of Light, since its low cost, low recharge, heroes like to spam heals and the necro wont run out of energy anytime soon. A N/Mo may only be 95% effective compared to that N/Rt, but it will do the job and for the most part the small difference wont be noticeable unless you're going for a new speed record.
Personally, I like my N/mo variant, as I like to add hex remove to the bar. I know the idea behind sabway is to just outheal any hexes that land, but those things annoy me. Thus, I run what I like to run.
If you play with heroes its not like they will complain that their skill bars aren't meta.

Romosapian · Aug 10, 2011, 11:48 PM // 23:48

These are some well thought out replies, thanks for your time. I totally forgot the elites I mentioned were Divine. That wasn't really the point of the argument but I should have definitely noticed that. I do like the idea of Glimmer of Light being spammed without worrying about energy, I might give that a shot. I just don't see how relying on those two Rit skills for a full group is better then a full monk bar with hex removals and better heals, but I might be underestimating Restoration's potential like you were saying.

Elfblade · Aug 11, 2011, 12:42 AM // 00:42

If you want to run healing prayers I think it is better to run a monk hero as energy is not as much of an issue since the 7 hero erA. You can have more stability as you don't depend on henchman bars. And in theory your healer will need to heal less because here is more synergy in your build and you are running better bars.(I.e. Less energy is needed due to less damage taken) n/rt is no longer the better build if you do not want utility. Run healing prayers at it's fullest with a monk and using df(divine healing and heavens delight become available). A n/mo with healing prayers is subpar to a primary monk with healing prayers. Just some thoughts to consider.

Note: iPhone responding sucks...

Plutoman · Aug 11, 2011, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Romosapian

These are some well thought out replies, thanks for your time. I totally forgot the elites I mentioned were Divine. That wasn't really the point of the argument but I should have definitely noticed that. I do like the idea of Glimmer of Light being spammed without worrying about energy, I might give that a shot. I just don't see how relying on those two Rit skills for a full group is better then a full monk bar with hex removals and better heals, but I might be underestimating Restoration's potential like you were saying.

I don't want you to take my post offensively, as my only intent is to help - anyways, to continue on.

A monk bar can include a lot of variety, as long as energy is carefully thought out. A monk can't spam. However, it has a lot of power in it's divine favor, including an extra health bonus (30-35 or so generally), per heal, along with the power of the divine favor spells.

A necro bar, while having the variety of a monk bar, suffers from the lack of power for those skills. Glimmer of Light is good, but a lot of it's power from also spamming that DF bonus, too.

Because of Divine Favor, Rit Resto skills heal more than a monk skills - but a monk can benefit from many good elites.

A comparison of skills -

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dwayna%27s_Kiss
Heals for 95, conditionally.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Heal_Other
Heals 180, but can't self-target.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Orison_of_Healing
Heals for 70, shorter recharge.

Comparatively, Rit skills..

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mend_Body_and_Soul
Heals for 115, plus removing conditions with spirits.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Spirit_Light
Heals for 180, as long as a spirit is around, it's as powerful as Heal Other, but it can self target. If a spirit isn't around, the sac makes it less useful.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Soothing_Memories
Heals for 100, plus returning energy if you hold an item (and as a healer, you have PwK, so it generally returns energy).

Dwayna's Kiss is a staple on most Monk bars, yet it returns conditionally less than MBaS does, with the same recharge, and a longer casting time, and same energy cost, along with condition removal. The rit doesn't have the variety of a monk, but it's pure healing and condition removal is relatively unmatched.

Comparing both professions, PwK can be double dropped for approximately the same heal as both DF party-heals, though on a longer recharge. It can be dropped instantly, though, without a casting time, to even out the match, and it's only one skill compared to two.

An N/Mo bar will have the support of the monk bar, but without the power behind it. A rit bar can have the power, and provide support in other areas instead (while another hero covers the support healing, instead of the damage support), which is why an N/Rt is generally preferable.

That being said, I only run an N/Rt with BiP as an elite, and otherwise I generally run monks or pure Rit's nowadays. An ST/Shelter/PwK/SL/MBaS rit is quite powerful in both protection and healing.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:...bar_Efficiency

Interesting when thinking upon how energy affects things. You can use less efficient skills, while a monk would tend towards the top end. Btw: comparatively, Glimmer of Light < Healing Burst (healing burst is epiiiic).

Wenspire · Aug 11, 2011, 08:20 AM // 08:20

Sabway is minion-based, right? If so, wouldn't running a monk be better over a restore-rit because you could use Dwayna's Sorrow on minions for the sporatic party healing? At least, that's what I've experienced when monking with an MM in a party.

Quaker · Aug 11, 2011, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Romosapian

So my question is this. Why don't I ever see (and I have been looking) a N/Mo build that utilizes Soul reaping for energy management AND has kikass monk skills, including some party wide heals and a few great low energy heals.

Primarily because most of the people who use PvX builds, do it in a very cookie-cutter way.. They only use exactly what is in the build (even to the point of the specific weapons) and don't or won't take the time to understand how the build works, what's important, and what can be changed. A Sabway build would work just fine with ordinary Monks.